EPISODE 002 | JOOLS SAMPSON - EXTRAORDINARY RETREATS

Podcast
Written By Sascha Kaus
 
 
retreat affairs podcast episode 002 jools sampson 16by9.jpg
 
 

“I think the kind of retreats that we do, they are for the person who's travelling, the traveller, the guest, the yogi, whatever, however you want to describe them. They are kind of purchasing an experience. That's what you're selling. And for them, we are creating something really magical and powerful. But the impact and the connexion that you have with the people that you're working with for me is equally important. And you work with with a local team. I kind of co create my retreats with local teams. So it takes me a long time to find a venue and then we put the programmes together. So they're mutually beneficial. And that's partly the the human connection that you're talking about.“

- Jools Sampson

Podcast 002 | Jools Sampson - Extraordinary Retreats

Jools Sampson is the founder and owner of Reclaim Your Self. She has more than 15 years of experience in hosting retreats all around the world. Jools has done more than 200 retreats and was the first one to bring a Yoga retreat to Mongolia. She offers weekend getaways in the UK, Yoga Retreats in faraway places like Japan, Iceland, Panama or India and Yoga holidays to remote destinations like Mongolia or Svalbard.

Many of her retreats have been featured as some of the best retreats worldwide. With her focus on extraordinary locations and destinations, Jools creates unforgettable experiences and she works with a team of world-class yoga teachers and chefs that take those retreats to the next level.

Jools works closely with local communities to make sure her retreats not only have a transformative impact on her guests but also on the places she visits. Her recent efforts are focused on creating sustainable travel experiences. Jools never stops reinventing and evolving what she does with her retreats.

In this episode you will hear a lot of fun stories, you will get insights what the challenges are running a retreat business and you will get plenty of tips from one of the most experienced retreat business owners that you will find out there.

Please enjoy!

Retreat Affairs is recorded and hosted by Sascha Kaus.

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A Mongolian Adventure 

a video by Retreat Affairs host Sascha Kaus and Richard Pilnick shot on a Reclaim Your Self retreat in Mongolia

In the interview with Jools Sampson I talk about the retreat she runs in Mongolia and that I went there when she did it the very first time. The video below is from that trip. I was so lucky to go on that trip to shoot and edit this video with Richard Pilnick and the help of lululemon UK.

Show Notes

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PLEASE NOTE THE FOLLOWING LEGAL CONDITIONS:

Sascha Kaus owns the copyright in and to all content of the Retreat Affairs podcast as well as in all transcripts of the Retreat Affairs podcast, with all rights reserved, as well as his right of publicity.

No one is authorized to copy, share or multiply any part of the podcast, this transcript or any other content on this website without written permission from Sascha Kaus.

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Sascha Kaus: Welcome to the show, Jools. It's such a pleasure to have you here. It's a real honour to talk to you.

Jools Sampson Oh, thank you so much for inviting me. I'm really excited about it. I was really honoured when I got your message asking me to be part of this. I just thought what a brilliant idea. I'm in.

Sascha Kaus: Thank you so much. I mean, I have to say and also to give our listeners a little bit of context. You've been such an inspiration for myself. And I actually like the moment that we met going to Mongolia. I mean, you organised the first-ever yoga retreat in Mongolia, and I was so lucky to be with you there. It was just like an amazing experience. So, yeah, you really created something special.

Jools Sampson Oh, yeah. Thank you very much. Yeah. You did dive in right at the deep end, didn't you? I would say that Mongolia is probably our most adventurous retreat ever. And it still is. But you came to the first one. So you saw it all unfolding, didn't you?

Sascha Kaus Yes, absolutely. So before we go a little bit more into the retreats themselves and also to Mongolia. I just want to go back a little bit in time. And I want to ask, do you actually remember your first retreat that you ever attended or did you ever attend a retreat before creating your own?

Jools Sampson: I used to work in international development and I lived in Tanzania, in East Africa, and I had a completely different life there. And I was working in an office feeling a little unhappy about that whole part of my life. And I while I was there, I retrained as a massage therapist and while doing all my training, met this whole group of ex-pat people that were into wellness. And through them, I discovered yoga retreats and they weren't kind of the yoga retreats that you have today. But it was a group of people going away for a weekend. They just put themselves into a hotel, took their yoga teacher with them and ordered healthy meals. And I kind of went along to a few of those. And I think at that point in my life where I was, you know, in that work hard play hard phase that you tend to have, I don't know if everyone does. I did. Whereas, you know, I used to smoke. I was drinking. I was working late. I was drinking coffee. I was kind of getting towards burn-out. And when I used to go away from my weekends, I would just go away, drink all weekend, have loads of fun and have big blow out and then come back feeling even worse and then go back to work on a Monday. And I think by suddenly doing these weekends with this group of people where you went away and you looked after yourself when you eat well and you slept well and you moved your body and you were in company of other people that encourage you to do that. And then I'd go back to work on Monday fitting. Amazing. So for me, that was the very first moment and the inspiration of going. This is a really good thing to do. So, yeah, that's kind of I didn't really book a retreat like the retreat you have now because they weren't around. I’m that old, it's been going for that long.

Sascha Kaus: [00:05:52] At some point you decided to step out of the corporate world and go more into the whole wellness sector. What was that journey like?

Jools Sampson: Yeah, it was it took me a while. I mean, I worked in development for ten years and that was always, you know, I studied at a university that was always my plan. And I did it for ten years and I kind of just got a bit disillusioned with it. When I got this job in Tanzania, I was so excited to go. And then when I got there, I realised I didn't really fit in. I didn't like being an ex-pat and being kind of segregated and I couldn't find my way past it. And you know, I know loads of amazing people that still do that work. And they've found their way through that maze. And they're not in a segregated life. They're doing amazing work. But for me, I just got stuck in it somehow. It wasn't right for me. So I kind of went through that phase of being very disillusioned and thinking, well, this is my life plan and it's not working now. What should I do?

And I was just really lucky because the ex-pat community in Tanzania at the time was relatively small. And there was this amazing woman called Radka, who's a Slovenian woman who set up a spa in Dar es Salaam. At the time, it was the only one. And everyone used to go there for massages. And she just said to me one day, I have a really strong feeling that I need to teach you massage. Do you want to learn? I'm going to put a course together for you. And I was like, yeah, why not? You know, not much else to do in the evenings here. Never really thought about it. Oh yes. I sign myself up for that here.

And literally, I went in for the first day. And the first day that I put my hands on the first person, there was just this moment of reconnection to myself and to that person. My hands were on and it was just life-changing for me. And I'm just so lucky that happened. You know, I didn't even know that was gonna happen. I just kind of went along, as I thought, to be something a bit different. And I was just in. I think I was so disconnected from being an ex-pat, you know, feeling disconnected to my work, to other people feeling a bit lonely, and then suddenly to put my hands on someone and feel this deep, meaningful connexion. And Radka was the most amazing teacher. She just basically downloaded years and years and years of experience. And it wasn't, you know, like a massage course where you learn a routine and then you pass your test. It was more her saying, how do you feel your body, somebodies body through your hands? Don't think about it, feet. It was the most amazing training as she was there. She was a tough teacher. You know, I had to massage every week and she'd go, no, not like that, no.

And it was, you know, it’s the hard way to learn. But I really, really learnt the art of massage. And I was just in. I was just hooked. This makes me feel good and I'm helping somebody else feel good. What else can I do? And I just went on this really wonderful journey because Radka could say, oh, so-and-so teaches yoga at a house. You want to come and try that? Right. Yoga. What's that? Let's go. So off I went.

And I think because I wasn't in the UK, which is where I'm from, and I was in this, you know, small, quiet place, I just had time in my evenings and weekends to explore it. And then, you know, looking at food and changing my diet. And then I stopped smoking. And then I cut down on my drinking and I kind of just went on my own journey from almost burn-out into getting well and getting healthy. And then I took a sabbatical from my job, came back to London and did my professional massage training. So I was like, this is what I want to do with my life. So then I did my anatomy and physiology, passed my exams, and then I went back to Tanzania and did consultancy work plus massage.

And I thought this is my new life. I'll do consultancy work and earn money. And then I'll do massage and just enjoy my life. And for a couple of years that worked for me and I carried on, you know, connecting and learning and practising yoga. And then did Tai Chi and then I did Reiki and, you know, just kind of as you do when it's all when you just went into everything. And after a couple of years, I just thought, I can't actually live this dual life. It's like a schizophrenic life where one day I'm doing my consultancy work and I feel a bit depressed and I don't feel right about what I'm doing. And then another day I'm massaging or, you know, doing some kind of healthy weekend and I feel amazing. Life is short. I've just got to live it.

So I basically decided to come back to the UK and try and work out what to do. I didn't come back thinking I'm going to set up a retreat company because that didn't really exist at the time. I think I thought I was going to set up a spa. And I came back to London and then, you know, the reality of being in the West, I was like, oh, that's going to be very expensive. And loads of people are already doing that. I don't think I really want to do that. So I kind of did massage for a few months wondering what to do. Met loads of really interesting people. And then I got a job working at Purple Valley Retreat Centre in Goa. I don't know if you've heard of that. It’s an Ashtanga Yoga Retreat Centre. It's been running for a really long time. It's a really amazing place. They basically have all of the top Ashtanga yoga teachers internationally, come and teach a one or two-week retreat.

So there's a massive turnover of up to 40 guests every one or two weeks and a whole team behind it. And that was my first experience of a proper retreat centre and all the drama and the magic and the power and everything. I was like, this is what I want to do. And at that point, I'd already, when I first came back to the UK, I signed up to do a nutrition course and I'd met some people on that course that were saying, you know, let's do some events. And we'd kind of done a couple of things in the UK and just invited our friends and just, you know, like put out some bell tents in a garden and run a weekend for our friends. But then when I went to India, that was when I went, oh, this is what a retreat is. And watch that journey that people do from when they arrive on a retreat until they leave. And I watched it happen time and time again for an eight-month period, and I think that's where I really kind of learnt what it is and how I wanted to be involved.

Sascha Kaus: So how long did it take you from walking into Radkas place for the first time and then setting up your very first own retreat?

Jools Sampson: Three years. My first proper retreat, I would say I did a UK weekend in Dartmoor. I can't remember the name of the place. Now was not a public place. It was someone's private house. But it was the first one where people were. It wasn't just my friends coming. We actually advertised it and, you know, had a proper chef and a proper yoga teacher rather than just a group of friends doing it. And that was in 2005.

Sascha Kaus: When you did that first weekend, what was the motivation? Was it also to share your own skills, like offer massages or anything beyond that?

Jools Sampson: It definitely wasn't about my massages at that point. It was, I think, my original motivation. And that this is still very much part of it is I had just met some really amazing practitioners and I wanted to put them together. And create, it’s a creative thing, I wanted to put together a programme with this yoga teacher. This healer. This chef and this is what's going to happen at this time. And that's going to happen then. I just I was always interested in how you create each day and how what happens to people during each day and who's gonna do what. And the process from when someone arrives to when they leave. So it was really for me about creating that event and then inviting people and say, if you come and do this, I guarantee you going to feel great.

Sascha Kaus: And so how would you say over the last fifteen years.

Jools Sampson: 15 years.

Sascha Kaus: Yeah, well, it's like a long time. So how would you say did this whole thing evolve for in terms of the motivation, what you want to create and how that shows up for the guests?

Jools Sampson: I think actually, I was thinking about this the other day. My original motivation for what I do still stands. I haven't really changed in terms of, for me, it's all about creating these amazing experiences and working with brilliant teams to deliver them and offering it out to people and saying come and join us. But the way that I've done it and where I've done it and how I've done it has changed along the way. It's kind of gone through different phases. I never sat down. And when I'm going to create a retreat business and this is my business plan. And in three years, I'm going to make this much money. And in five years I'm gonna make this much money. And in 10 years I'm going to sell it and I'm gonna be a millionaire.

Sometimes I think I should have done that. But it's too late now. That's not what I did. It's just been a kind of creative like I didn't think I'd end up doing this as a full-time job. I didn't think this would be. I thought I would kind of, you know, do some events and do other stuff. And it just kind of grew by thinking that the creative force of what I've been doing has always been there. But when I first started, I didn't really think I just wanted to go to beautiful places. And I think because I lived in Tanzania and I managed to, you know, travel, you know, Tanzania's an incredibly beautiful country and there's so many amazing places. And I think if you live there, you start to explore places that people don't go to so much. So I got a real taste for going to incredible wild places. So I wanted to find those kind of places. But the beginning, I didn't have the courage to take people to places like that.

I felt like people you know, I did a retreat in Goa, but instead of booking a retreat centre, I took over a village. I just wanted to do it that way, I think because I had been doing development work before, I always wanted my retreat's to be something where I gave something back. And I like working with local people. I don't really want to kind of go to a forward retreat centre. So I worked at a foreign-owned retreat centre and it was amazing. But I really liked the fact that the Indian staff were the people that were really running the show and the rest of us foreigners just kind of had to ask them how to do it. So I kind of found a village in South Goa and then had a meeting with the village government and said, you know, I'd like to bring a group here and this is, you know, I'd like to do. And then they had a whole discussion. They said, yes, you can do that. Basically, they had like about six houses in the village where people had spare rooms they rented out to travellers. So we basically invested, gave them some money so they could repaint the rooms, get new mattresses, set it all up. They cleared a piece of land for the yoga. And then I employed most of the village to be part of the retreat, even the kids who'd run off and get the bread in the mornings. And it was like a massive effort from everybody. I didn't make any money at all myself, but it was an amazing experience. And so I've kind of always wanted to do things that are a bit different and a bit unusual. I guess that's always been part of what I do.

Sascha Kaus: So what are then the moments within a retreat where you feel that you're really close to your mission, close to what you want to do?

Jools Sampson: The moments on a retreat when I feel that? I don't know if it's whether I feel. I'm just thinking about it cause it’s such a good question. There's usually on most retreats there's a moment where I sit there and I go, yes. And it's normally when the group have connected, it's often at mealtime or it's an activity where most the group, if not all of them are involved and they're deeply connecting with the local host. And everyone's talking and chatting and communicating and sharing. And then in the moment, they're totally present. They're not talking about something has happened to them at home. They're maybe not talking about any problems they've got. They're right there. They're present talking about where they are, what they're doing. They're connecting with somebody who probably doesn't even speak much of their language. And those are the moments when I feel absolute joy, like this is it. This is where we're at.

Sascha Kaus: So how are retreats any different from the usual experiences when we travel, when we go to foreign places when we meet people in other countries? What is it that makes retreat so special?

Jools Sampson: Yeah, I think I mean, it's like it's the power of travel plus wellness, isn't it? It's the combination of those two things. And, you know, I was talking about it earlier, you can go on a trip. There's so many different types of trips you can go on. And for people that are passionate and love travelling and love going on holidays, you can go away somewhere and just being away from home, being out of your routine, being away from the stress of your daily life. That in itself is, I think, something that, you know, that whenever you travel, whether you're going on a package holiday or you're going to climb a mountain, that's your kind of first thing that happens when you're away that starts to shift you. And I think going to another place and you're meeting another culture and you've got different surroundings, all of those things are maybe being about your comfort zone, maybe feeling a little bit challenged. You just kind of shift. But if you then add in doing daily yoga classes. Twice a day. You know, that's for some people, maybe they practise yoga twice a day. I find that most people that come on my retreats, that's not their normal practice. We do get some people that have a daily practice, but often it's people that go to class once or twice a week and sometimes once a week. Or they haven't been to yoga for ages. And then suddenly they're there and they're doing a daily practice. They're up early in the morning. They're working. They're moving, they're breathing, you know.

I work with really brilliant yoga teacher. I think, you know some of them. And it's challenging. And it's, you know, being in that situation every day. People ask you to think about things. You know some of my teachers treat, teach quite strong philosophy and it's challenging. And to have that daily practise, you start your day with that and then you go out and do whatever you're going to do and then you come back together and you continue that practise in the evening. That journey that people do from, you know, when they go into class the first day, there's like a wild bunch. They're all running in. Some of them were in their early and some of them run in their lay. And then you know, by day three, they're like this beautiful group that are working together. They're all in unison because they've been in this class. They're having this shared experience.

I don't go into the Yoga classes. I like people to feel they're having a private experience with the yoga teacher. So I don't let the team come in. We don't go and watch. It's something very private. So what I see is what they're like before class and what they're like after class. And sometimes, you know, in a morning, if someone hasn't slept well or some stuff's come up for them, you know, I always greet everyone in the morning before they go into yoga class and make sure they were right. And I kind of thing a couple of people are feeling a little bit out of sorts.

By the time they all come out of yoga, their whole mood has shifted and changed. And it's not always an easy process. It's not like you're going to yoga. You come out, you feel happy. Sometimes it challenges you. Sometimes you will come out and they feel frustrated or they feel upset. But, you know, going on that journey with a yoga teacher is very powerful. And then if you add in an amazing chef who's feeding you like great nutritional, powerful, tasty food that you're not having to think about, I mean, you're a chef. You can talk more about this, the power of feeding people. As you know, it’s the same as the yoga it can be quite controversial because you're not going to not everyone's going to love every meal, not everyone's going to love what you're doing. But if you're having, you know, a retreat where you're having a bit less sugar, a bit less caffeine, a bit less alcohol. We tend we tend to do plant-based food. Sometimes we do vegetarian, but it's mostly plant-based food. And we take away refined sugars. We do have a coffee every now and again. We don't serve alcohol, but people can have a drink if they go out. So it's not like a total strict thing. But for many people, that's not how they normally eat. And that is also a journey.

I'm not a yoga teacher. I'm not a chef. I don't feel qualified to talk in great detail. But what I see is people going through that journey. And I think it's a very powerful thing. And then, you know, if you add maybe having a treatment, a massage, some transformational Breathwork, whatever, you know, Shiatsu and then sleeping well and then resting and then going out and have adventures, that whole combination for people takes them, I think, more deeply into themselves. And then along on a journey that is often quite transformational. And I do think you can have that. If you go on a package holiday tour, you can, but it's different. It's different, you know, yet it depends what you need from a holiday. But for me, that's what I see happens on a retreat and that is why I'm so passionate about it.

Sascha Kaus: I totally get to you and I see it within my own retreats. And especially when I cook for people and when they come out of class. I see the same thing. When they go into class in the morning and when they come out, they're totally transformed in a way. And you can also feel over the days how the group gets together. And those are always very, very special moments. Sometimes it's at a meal table. Sometimes it's a little trip that you take and everybody is in a special place in nature. And then you really feel this moment where it connects, where it shifts from. Being the individuals that come on a retreat towards becoming this group. This organism that's together and there's a bond that's created. I also have that a lot within the moments when we serve the food. It's something that many of us don't really experience that in such a way anymore, because most of the people that come to the retreats, most of us are living on their own and coming together and share food in such a way apart from having a lunch break with colleagues or whatever, it's something that doesn't happen so often. And so that's also quite a powerful thing.

So how do you see your own role in those moments? When you say you don't go into the class, you don't teach. Sometimes you offer massage. But how do you see your role in general for the group and how do you connect with the people?

Jools Sampson: Well, I think I have loads of different roles. I'm the organiser, so I'm usually kind of the logistical manager of the retreat. I'd like to say so. I am the person that, you know, I put the schedule together and then I have to deliver it. So I'm the timekeeper and I'm the person making sure that everyone's gone into yoga and time. And if someone's missing, cheque where they are. Make sure they're okay. I'm the person that makes sure you all are right in the kitchen is food gonna be on the table. If there's an excursion that people are going on the minibus or whatever. Some of the retreats we do there's a lot happening. So I am the lady with the clipboard, with a list walking around, making sure that everything happens.

I feel like when you run a retreat, you create a container and the container, that kind of structure of it is the schedule. And I think it's really important that you deliver that schedule exactly as you have promised because people feel safe then. If everything starts being a bit late or keeps changing, you know, it really does affect everyone's mood. And sometimes if you're working somewhere that has crazy weather, you have to change things. But I always make it very clear at the beginning, I put my schedule up on the wall and I tell people if there's any change, you’ll see it in red the day before and then I'll let you know. So everyone feels safe and that they're in good hands. This is not something that's just gonna turn into chaos. So that's my first job.

Sascha Kaus: What else is it that you feel that makes people feel safe? Because it is also something that I experience a lot. Once I'm able to create an atmosphere where people feel safe, then it's possible to create magic.

Jools Sampson: Yeah, that's a good point.

I think at the core of it, it's down to the team. You know. I've been doing it for 15 years, but I quite often put myself in situations where we're running retreats in quite crazy countries. But I do have a very calm approach to most things. And people say to me, you know, sometimes I've been a bit worried and then I look at your face, Jules, and I feel fine.

You know, I think is a bit that thing, like when you're on an aeroplane and there's turbulence and you cheque the air steward and if they're not looking worried, it's all good. So I think I have quite a strong part to play, you know because they've dealt with me in the build-up to the retreat. And there I am running it and I'm calm and I'm like: “Don't worry. We'll sort that out. That's fine.”

But also having a really amazing yoga teacher who is confident, strong. You know, so much stuff can come up in a yoga class, as you know. And on a retreat, even more so. And having a teacher that's very experienced with that because you're in a residential situation, it's not like you to teach one class and everyone goes home and just deals with themselves. You know, it's going to cause stuff that’s going to come up. So a teacher that is present, you know, my teachers don't just teach the class, then disappear off in their room. They eat meals with the guests. Sometimes they come out on excursions, they climb mountains with them. They're fully available and fully connected and part of the retreat.

So and same thing with their chefs. They don't really have time. So much to kind of engage, but they're always there at mealtimes. They're always there to chat about what they've cooked and why they have. So I think people feel. “These guys know what they're doing. What I'm eating, what I'm practising, what I'm doing. These people are professional.”

So I think that's a really big part of it. And then just, you know, what you've created. There's a real skill in putting together a retreat schedule. And the journey that people go on is definitely I'm really passionate about that whole design of a retreat and understanding. I mean, you know, you run retreats. There's usually a day where everyone feels a bit funny and how you manage that day is just absolutely key. And it's taken me years to understand that that is where the magic happens. That's the juicy bit, isn't it? That's where people are feeling a bit out of their comfort zone. They're tired. Their homesick, they fancy a beer. They're kind of just in that place, going: Arrrggh. And I used to take that personally. I used to think, oh, my God, people are not enjoying the retreat. Oh, no. What have I done wrong? And now, after years of doing it, I understand that that's where you do the work.

And kind of going back to your earlier question about my role beyond the practical role of what I'm doing and supporting people. I make sure that I get to know every single person on the first day. You know, I'm dealing with them. We run 10 retreats a year. It's not a massive company. And I know I want to keep it that way. So I get to know everyone's name before they come. Some of them I've already chatted to. If they've asked me lots of questions. I always make sure I get a list and I go through and I make sure on the first day that I've spoken to everyone and then, you know, within two days I'll make sure that I've sat with different people at mealtimes and just find out stuff about them.

And I've got my own little secret formula about what kind of things I want to ask them. Like, I'd never say, what do you do? I don't want to know, you know, what job they do. I don't want them to define themselves to me. “So I'm a lawyer or I'm a nurse.” You know, I ask them different questions and I kind try and find out what it is that they're why they're here. Why they've come on a retreat and then I kind of try and make it my business to make sure they get what they need as they go through.

And also, if there's something happening for them where they feel vulnerable or worried or bored or that I can find a way to give them what they need. I think that's my speciality skill. That's what I'm really bringing to a retreat. And I work quite closely with my team. You know, sometimes something will come up for somebody in yoga and they share it with the yoga teacher or something will come up in a healing session and they'll share it. And what happens to people on a retreat is very private. And all of my team are very good at, you know, client confidentiality. But sometimes a team member will come to me and say, can I speak to you in private?” You know, this person just had a pretty big session. She's feeling a little bit wobbly” They won't tell me what it is and what's gone on because this is private where they say, you know, she's being a little bit wobbly. And I would just make sure if I can, I'll sit next to that person at lunch and just quietly cheque in or just, you know, if I can't sit next to them, I'll just keep my eye briefly and maybe give the yoga teacher a heads up and say. You know, that person's having a bit of a day today. Let's do this, let's be gentle. So it kind of really caring for everybody as it goes along. And I think my role is to oversee all of that for my guests in a very compassionate and careful way.

Sascha Kaus: What would you say? How big of an importance is this kind of ability to hold space, to be ready to encounter maybe difficult situations with guests when they're going through a hard time?

Jools Sampson: Oh, I think it's like the absolute key to the success of a retreat. Really, I think if you want to create a retreat where people are doing deep work, I think it's it's essential. And it's not easy. Sometimes it's not easy.

And I'm really grateful for my team because there are days when, you know, I can handle a lot. I can cope with a lot, especially on the sort of logistical, practical stuff if something goes wrong. I can, you know, manage quite a lot of bonkers situations. But, you know, sometimes people come at you and it's hard and it's good. You know, people might, when they arrive, they're not happy. They've arrived and they feel out of their comfort zone. And as I'm the organiser and the owner, of course, they're going to come to me and maybe present me with something that I can't do anything about. And that's sometimes that's quite hard to hold. And in those moments, you know, I've had such amazing support from, say, my yoga teacher saying: “Don't take it personally. There's probably something else going on. Have faith in the process. Be kind. Be compassionate. Be strong. Let's hold it together and see what happens in the next couple of days.”

And, you know, nine times out of ten, whatever was bothering that person. When they arrive within 24 or 48 hours, as they settle into the process, they kind of go: “Oh, okay, this is cool, I can do this.” So it's so important to not, you know, I don't know, argue back with someone when they're not happy when they arrived and say to them: “Well, this is what you booked and this is what you paid for. I made it quite clear” You know, it is so easy to do that, but instead to step back and understand the deeper process that there's something going on.

And I think when you work with a really experienced retreat team, you all know that you will know what's going on and what you have to wait for.

Sascha Kaus: So how do you choose your team? How do you find the people that you'd like to work with and that you have a long working relationship with?

Jools Sampson: Very interesting question. It's kind of word of mouth, usually, my team is quite small. And I prefer to keep it that way. It's not that I don't like to pout a retreat together and then try and find a team to deliver it. I find the team and then I put the retreat together. So it is a real kind of creative collaboration. So I think I am currently working with 10 people in total. And, you know, not everyone does every retreat. So I got four yoga teachers that I work with, three chefs and then a couple of assistants and bodyworkers.

I work a lot with Emma Henry, who I think, you know, she is a really amazing Jivamukti teacher and how I met her is, one of her students, came on another one of my retreats and she said to me: “Do you know Henry?” And I said: “No”. And she said: “You and her really remind me of each other. I'd really like. I'd really like to introduce her to you. I don't know if she's interested in doing retreats. I go to her classes. She just kind of says similar jokes to you. Maybe you just like each other.” And I thought: “Yeah, she sounds great” and, you know, got home, Googled her as she do, checked her out and thought: “Yeah, she looks cool.” And then we just met for a juice and I just liked her immediately and said: “You know, this is what I'm doing.” She's like: “Yeah, that sounds great.” And it was literally a conversation like that. And then she said: “Come to class.” And I think at the time I'd had an injury and I had a frozen shoulder. So I went and sat in the corner of the class and just watched this. And I'd never been to a Jivamukti class before. And I mean, an Emma Henry Jivamukti class is something else, isn't it? I think it's about 50 people in the class.

And I walked in and was like: “Yes, please. I want this on my retreat's. I don't know what it is, but I like it.” And then we had a couple more meetings. I think we went out for afternoon tea at a hotel in London and I thought we'd meet for an hour and we left about midnight, having met three in the afternoon and we just didn't stop talking. The connexion was just so deep, straight away. And, you know, clearly, Emma is a very talented teacher, but she's also very well travelled, very worldly and had so many ideas. So we were just like: “Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.” So it kind of happens like that organic and someone will suggest somebody and say, well, this person would be interesting for you to work with. And sometimes it's guests that come on retreats that have been to other people's classes or, you know, I think I worked on retreat in Ibiza and the guy who owned the retreat centre said: “Oh, we worked with this great woman called Amanda Tizard. She does massage and healing work. Would you like her to come in and massage your clients?” I thought: “Yeah, sure. Great.” And she turned up and as soon as she walked in, she went: “Hello.” And I was like “Hello.” And we just sat down and talked for ages because she'd arrived and everybody was in class and we were chatting and me and her just we just got on so well. And I was like: “Oh, please, come on, do more and more retreat’s.” I mean, I've managed to kind of lure her entity more and more. So we're like a really tight team.

Adam Husler is another teacher I work with quite a lot. I had actually met, I don't know if you know him. Alessandro Sigsimundo. He's a photographer, filmmaker, Italian guy, really talented, really interesting. And I met him. Can’t remember where. Talk to him about projects in Italy. And he was showing me some of his work and he showed me a film of Adam. And it was a funny film about him running around London, teaching and drinking too much coffee. I just thought: “Yeah, he looks like fun.” And then there was a bit of him doing his practice. I just thought: “He looks like fun.” So I don't know. I'm not really answering your question. I don't advertise. I don't do local recruitment. But I kind of go by word of mouth. And then I meet people and I chat to people and I have an idea of what I want and what I need. And I think a lot of teachers, in particular, don't want to work the way that I'm working because I want a lot. I expect a lot. It's like either you're into this whole thing or you're not, it’s not that you, like, get booked for a job and you turn up and you get paid a grand or three grand and then go away. It's like you're in this team and you're in this process and you gotta give it your all. And I think that certain people at certain times in their life, especially their teaching career, are up for that. It's the same for the chefs. It's like you can't just turn up and do a menu and go home. You've got to create a menu that is part of this process. So, yeah, it takes a certain type of person.

Sascha Kaus: I totally get that. And that's something that I've also experienced going with you to Mongolia. And knowing Emma. I've cooked for Emma on a retreat myself, and I've met Bettina, who is cooking for you. I really feel the kind of connexion that you have with those people. And at least the way I've experienced them, it totally feels like natural to me. And that's also something that I see in creating my retreats. To have a team. If I want to create that kind of magic, if I want to create that special experience, I see myself as part of the whole experience, but also everybody of the team.

Jools Sampson:Absolutely.

Sascha Kaus: So it's really about that. And I really want to feel that passion within each and everyone who is working on that.

Jools Sampson: Yeah.

Sascha Kaus: Who's trying to create this week of magic? Those days that are really transformative for the guests.

Jools Sampson: Absolutely.

Sascha Kaus: Knowing knowing you and knowing Emma and some of the other people, it's something that I absolutely feel and it's a lot of fun. And I think that's also something that's quite unique and special about what you do and how you create those experiences.

Jools Sampson: Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't know if it's unique because obviously I only know - I haven't actually been on a retreat myself for a long time. I haven't been on anybody else's retreat. So I don't know. I kind of know that what I'm doing and where I'm working and the way that I'm working is quite different to a lot of other people. But that bond that we share on a retreat with the team and also with our local teams, that's always been there since the beginning. That's absolutely integral to what we do. I have had other people, some people come along and they do one retreat and it's just not for them. I mean, as a team member, usually because it's too tough. I mean, you know, working on a retreat, people go: “Oh, you run retreats.” Like I'm sitting by the pool all day. It is such hard work, is such hard work, it's like a minimum 14 hour day, especially the locations that we work. So, you know, the people that I work with regularly, they're grafters. We all know that process of getting up at 6:00 in the morning and working through till 10:00 and how to manage and resource ourselves and get through that day and the people that come along and do it, once or twice. They're just not up for that. That process, I think it is too tough.

Sascha Kaus: So is there also a certain emphasis that you create a dedicated experience that there is something that you have actually in mind setting up a retreat or something? Maybe also in the future that you look at creating this experience. Is there any kind of theme that you're aiming at?

Jools Sampson: I think always my theme at the heart of it is the wellness journey. And now, you know, in the last I say four years now, I've been really focussed. I kind of did a real shift in two…. I changed my sort of tagline to: “Explore extraordinary places” And I've kind of decided to specialise in going to what some people call bucket list locations or those kinds of really like often unusual or, yeah, unusual wild, remote places.

And those places are the places that I love to go to the I feel passion. That's what I've always wanted to do. And I finally got to a point where I feel confident enough to try and organise retreats there. It's not easy because quite often I'm working in places where they haven't had a retreat before, a certainly not a retreat like we are doing. So it is kind of pioneering. But that whole idea of being in the wilderness and being somewhere really remote, possibly without any Wi-Fi where people are really roaming around in nature that I would say goes alongside the wellness stuff now.

And more and more locations have quite a strong element of adventure travel in them. So I'm kind of adding in the possibility to hike to a top of a mountain to ride horses somewhere remote to, like, go snorkelling in some kind of paradise island. So as I'm putting their retreats together now, I am looking at locations that have those extra elements. So you've kind of got your wellness stuff, some adventures, some wilderness. So that's kind of like my package these days. And I would say that Mongolia probably is like epitomises all of that. That was probably the first one that I did. I went, Yeah. This is exactly what I've always wanted to do. And it took me nearly 10 years to get there.

Sascha Kaus: Let's talk about that story again. Let our listeners know. Because I heard it already a little bit. I know the story behind it, but I find it so fascinating. How do you come about going to Mongolia to host a yoga retreat?

Jools Sampson: I know Mongolia is a bit of a special one like this doesn't happen. This process is not what happens for all of my retreats, but for me, Mongolia had been a childhood dream. So when I was young, I read a book. I've always been into horses and I read a book called The Marvellous Mongolian Pony. And I was like a seven.

And it just has such a big impact on me because, at the time, Mongolia was a completely closed country. You couldn't go there. And this story was about a young girl in the U.K. Who’d bought a wild horse and she couldn't tame it. She had a Mongolian pen pal, which is what used to have before the Internet. And he was an amazing horseman because that's what they do in Mongolia. They're famous for how they ride. And he was sending her letters, telling her how to train her horse. But they were exchanging, you know, ideas about where they lived. And to me, in my mind, it was then planted that Mongolia was the ultimate place, like this completely wild, incredible place that you couldn't go to. You were allowed because the borders were closed. And so the seed was planted then. And many, many years later, when I had moved back to the UK and was kind of starting my job, my I was living in a flatshare and my flatmate was working for an NGO and one of the countries that she was managing was Mongolia. She's like, oh, I'm going to Mongolia next week. And I was like: “What, you're going to Mongolia? Oh, my God.”

So as soon as she came back, I was like. “Tell me everything.” And she was just describing what it was like. And I was like, I really want to run a retreat there. I just started then I was kind of like at the beginning, and I just thought it would never happen. But the seed was planted.

And then another friend of mine went to Mongolia with her family and she sent me a message saying: “I’ve just been to this camp in northern Mongolia, it’s open for tourists. You have to go through a tour company in the U.K. You can't go there independently by. I talked to the owner and he would be open to it. So here's his contact.” I sent him an email. Absolutely no reply. And then I kind of started this process of thinking, of how I'm going to do it. They have all these big camps. They probably still do. And you can, like, travel there with orderly travel and a bit, you know, with a big travel agent here in the U.K., you can do these trips where you kind of do the Trans-Siberian and end up in Mongolia and you stay in these camps and their big camps for like 50 people. There's no way you can do yoga. And they serve, you know, very different food. And I was thinking that was going to be my only option. I kept writing to people, no reply or they did and then it wasn't suitable.

And I kind of almost gave up, but I kept having this… for some reason, I always dream about Mongolia. I have these amazing dreams where I'm in this place and I'm completely free in this empty space. And I'm running around and I'm completely safe. It's like my happy dream and I actually been having them quite a lot in lockdown, which is quite interesting, obviously, about freedom. I would say. Anyway, I then decided I've got to do this and I don't do this for every retreat but I spent a weekend doing a vision board. So I did a whole load of research. I put a Lonely Planet book rather than going online because I didn't want to sell online. And I researched and I researched my research. And then I decided I looked at a map and I looked at all the different places you could go to. And I decided a particular area and just went. That is where I want to do my retreat.

And then I did a vision board and put all the different elements on there. And then I Googled that place and a newspaper article came up for this particular area. And it was a journalist who'd gone to a camp and described his experience and at the bottom image, it said, my trip was hosted by this particular travel company.

So I Googled them, found their email, emailed them and went, Oh, hello, blah, blah, blah. And I literally got a reply within five minutes. And after years and years of not hearing from anyone, I suddenly got a reply. And at the time, the company I work with is a Mongolian company. But this very inspiring Swedish guy called Jan Wigsten, who has been working in Mongolia for years, he had the vision to set this company up and he got my email. And I don't know if it's because he's Swedish, but something… he just thought that would be a brilliant idea. Someone should do some yoga retreats in Mongolia. And he wrote to me and said: “I think that's a really great idea. What would you need to make it happen?” And I said: “Oh, I would need this space for the yoga.” And we kind of had a couple of email exchanges. And then we did a Skype. I think it was Skype at the time. And he was like: “Ok, if you're going to do a retreat in Mongolia, you have to come here. You can’t actually…. you have to come and see it. You can't imagine it unless you've been here. Can you come next week?” I was just like: “Oh, my God” And then I booked a flight. And I was in Mongolia within a week and it was like one of those moments in my life when I arrived, it was in September. It was snowing. It was quite intense. And then we just went straight out the Gobi. And when I arrived in the Gobi, it was like arriving in the place I'd been dreaming about. It was so powerful for me. It's like: “I’m here. I've actually done it. I'm here.” And from there we ran our first retreat the following July. And you were there?

Sascha Kaus: Yes, I was there. I was there.

Jools Sampson: So it doesn't normally take me that much effort to put a retreat together. But that was something that, you know, was obviously meant to be. And I have to say that I think that since I've been doing the retreats in Mongolia, it's been a turning point because I then had the confidence to really, like, look at my vision and go, I'm going to do this.

Sascha Kaus: I have to say, this was definitely one of the most amazing travel experiences and retreat experiences that I had in my life. And again, to give a little bit of context, I mean, I went not as a guest, but I went there to film. And so there is actually a little kind of evidence and a beautiful little film that we created that's out there. And I'm going to put a link into the show notes. I just wanted to explain a little bit more what it is actually like, because you just said, like, OK, you went to Mongolia and then you ended up in the Gobi. But I think it doesn't really communicate in a way the immense amount of travel and the sheer, like vastness of the country and what it takes to actually go there. It sounds a little bit like, yeah, you got to Mongolia and then you end up in the Gobi. But tells us a little bit more about your whole experience.

Jools Sampson: Good point. Yeah, well, I mean, to go from Europe to Mongolia is, you know, the quickest way is to fly there with Aeroflot via Moscow, which is… some people go: “I don’t want to do that.” But actually, it's fine. It's great. But, you know, it takes you 12 hours to get there and then you've got a really big time difference. So when people arrive, we usually, we're changing it up for the next treat, but usually, we stay one night in Ulan Bator. So you kind of arrive. We always stay in the same hotel. It's a kind of a comfortable but a Russian built block hotel that people kind of go: “Uhhh”. Okay, first step. I mean, Ulan Bator has changed dramatically even since you were there. Sascha, you won't believe this, but when we first went, there was quite a basic city, wasn't it? There wasn't so much to do. It's quite hard to find somewhere to eat.

Sascha Kaus: Actually I have to say, I was totally surprised because I think, like Ulan Bator had something like eight or nine vegan restaurants, and that totally blew my mind.

Jools Sampson: Yeah, they're really good on vegan stuff. Yeah, they're really good on their vegan stuff. But now they have a lot more restaurants. They're really on it now and there's some really interesting places to go.

So you kind of arrive, you stay your first night, you've got jet-lag. So you arrive at six o'clock in the morning. All the flights arrive at six o'clock in the morning. And if you've come from Europe, that's actually, you know, five PM or something in the evening, a can’t remember the tie time difference exactly. So the trick is that you have to stay awake all day to kick the jet-lag. And about 50 per cent the group fail and go to sleep. And then they wake up and it's Night-Time. And then the next morning, early, we wake up and we go to the train station and we take the train on the trans-Mongolian. It's the same route as the Trans-Siberian Express, but it's a different train. So we're on a local Trans Mongolian train for the whole day and we've got like four or five carriages and we spend the entire day on this train and it's just brilliant. You know, it's slow-travel is the epitome of slow travel. Well, no, actually, it's you're going slower and slower. And that time know there are beds. So some people who haven't been able to get some sleep will have a sleep and already people are starting to chat and bond.

And then you kind of go along and then, you know, it gets more and more and more empty as you're heading into the Gobi. And, you know, you see less than less. Then occasionally you see a heard of camels or herd of horses and some cows, and it gets less and less and less. I mean, you get to this train station that actually is just the block of concrete, which is the platform. And suddenly it's like everyone gets off the trains.

And everyone jumps off the train and then you are in the middle of absolutely nowhere and everyone's face is like: “Oh, my God, what are we doing?” And then we have jeeps that pick everybody up and we have another hour's drive off-road and we're bumping along, getting into more and more rocky sandy stuff, and then you kind of go over the hill and arrive into our Gobi camp. I mean, we've been going there now for five years. It's just the most incredible place, isn’t it? And there are 14 big yurts, it's a luxury camp, but it's glam paying and they call them gers.

The most amazing Mongolian family run that camp. And they've been there for years. And they run it like clockwork. And the first year that we went no one had ever done that before. So it was quite chaotic. But they have absolutely got it down now. We arrive and it's just totally set up ready for a yoga retreat, because normally what they do is they have different guests that arrive in twos and threes and stay for a few nights. So for us to book the entire camp out and turn up with 20 people. This is a lot of extra work for them.

So we turn up and they're there with the camels and the camel carts and they collect all our luggage. And, you know, we walk into the camp and just it's a moment. Bettina, our chef, goes ahead. So she's kind of there waiting to welcome people. And everyone's got their little name on the door of their yurt. So they kind of run into the camp. They've got to find their yurt. And, you know, most people run and find their yurt and go: “Oh, my God, look at this. this is amazing.” And then some people are like: “Where's the toilet?”

Well, I've got it because it's glamping. So you've got a beautiful yurt and you've got a nice little sink in your yurt. But the toilets are drop toilets and the are a little walk outside of the camp, aren't they? And one set of toilets, the camps kind of divided into two, so one set of toilets is actually quite close to where the camel herd lives. So you kind of have to walk past the camels to get to the toilet. And for some people, that's quite challenging. And if it's not challenging, it's certainly unusual.

You kind of come from your flat in London and the next minute, well not the next minute, actually, two days later, you're in this camp and some people you can see are thinking: “Oh, my God, I don't want to go to the toilet there. If I need to go to the toilet in the middle of the night.” And there's that moment where people kind of go: “Oh, my God, where am I?” And we have to work hard on that retreat the first few days to really help people feel comfortable. Showers. - we have to shower gers and we offer people to have one hot shower a day, but they have to book in for it because every morning the guys get up early, saddle up the camels. I don't actually know if that's the right term to saddle up a camel?

Get the camel car, get the water. They go off to the spring and then they bring back the water for the day. And then the girls that are looking after the showers take some of that water, put it on a fire. They make a camel dung fire. They boil the water ready. They put it in a bucket and that's your shower. And that whole process obviously takes a very long time. So we ask people just have one shower a day. And for some people, that's challenging that they can't just go into a bathroom and go to the toilet and have a shower.

But honestly, within two or three days, everyone's just kind of got into the whole rhythm of them were basically living like herders, but in very comfortable, cosy beds with Bettina cooking your food and Emma teaching your yoga. So where there and we stay there for four nights and you can't predict what the weather's going to be. Sometimes it's really windy, sometimes it rains. Sometimes it's boiling hot. It changes every day. People can go and ride the camels. They can take a bike and go out in the desert. The herders come and take us out for walks and show us the caves. And we head out on the last day. We head out further into the desert to this amazing rock bowl where we bake a fire and we have like a… Bettina cooks this big meal outside and then we sit and we do Kirtan round the fire. And we've bonded so well with our Mongolian team. There's a whole story around this maybe for another time.

But we kind of discovered on our first retreat that Mongolians really love to sing. And it's you know, if you kind of know a bit about Mongolian culture, you always know about the throat singing, which is quite unusual. They're quite famous throat singers. But actually, every Mongolian loves to sing. And, you know, they sing to their children and they sing to their parents, they sing to their animals. They sing when they're apart from each other. They sing songs to remember each other. They got the most amazing, beautiful songs. And when they heard Emma doing her chanting and her Kirtan and the group joining in, they are like: “Oh, you sing too!” And so we've kind of developed this thing where we have a sing-off. So we sit around the fire and we do our call and response Kirtan. And then they sing us Mongolian folk songs. And over the years that has become quite an event for them. We go off and they not only it's not just our Mongolian team, all the local herders rock up. So since I turned into this party. So these guys turn up on motorbikes and camels and they have their own barbecue. And they are like: “Oh the yogis are here!” and they bring their kids. And it's just the most wonderful experience. It's great.

And then the next day, we get into Jeeps and we spend eight hours travelling all the way across to a completely different part of Mongolia to stay in a different camp that could not be more different to the Gobi. It's lush and it's green and it's in the mountains. It's by a river, it’s much cooler. And we kind of do the whole thing again for another four days. So people get a real experience of being in this very sort of moon-like unusual Mongolian landscape and then this lush green one.

And then we head back to Ulan Bator and they stay another night in the hotel and they go home. So this is that is a nine-night, 10-day retreat. It's not a small one. Is a big adventure. It’s a big journey.

Sascha Kaus: I've been there and I've seen those places and they are still one of the most beautiful spots that I've seen in my whole life. And also the whole experience, I mean, I guess what a lot of listeners and also some of the feedback that I had when I was talking to my friends when I told them that I'd been going to a retreat in Mongolia. And even after coming back and talking about it, there was definitely, there were a few people asking, why do you need to go all the way to Mongolia to do a yoga retreat? And I think that's fair. It's like it's a reasonable question it’s a valid question. But I also I've felt for myself and I know what it does. I know what it means to go there. And I felt the kind of appreciation that the people there had for us being there and the kind of connexion that we were able to do. But how do you see it for yourself to go to Mongolia or even to other amazing places far away to create these experiences?

Jools Sampson: Well, I have mixed feelings about it. Actually. What I see is that if you travel to somewhere that's really remote and really far, it's very powerful. And it's a very unusual experience. And I would say that you know, the majority of people that have come on our Mongolia trip, for example, they formed really strong friendships with each other. You know, it's probably one of the most powerful retreats we do because of the location, but also because of Mongolian the Mongolian people and the Mongolian culture. So it's a very, very special experience.

But I do I have mixed feelings about flying around the world to do yoga. Full stop. Why do we need to do that?

And I think it kind of comes down to why do we travel and how do we travel? And it’s definitely something I've been thinking about a lot more in the last few years. That if you're going to travel somewhere like that, it needs to be done in the right way. And certainly, I mean, there's two things on that. Mongolia is the most remote and most extreme location we go to and to spend two days getting there and arriving with jetlag and exhaustion. And you kind of think: “Why did I do that? This is absolutely bonkers. Why have I just done that to myself? And then I have spent a few days recovering from that before I enjoy my trip.” But I can tell you the end result is absolutely worth the journey.

So on that side of it, I think it is a challenge and it's tough. And those are trips of a lifetime. I wouldn't want to be running retreats in Mongolia and doing only that and doing 20 of those a year. That's kind of not where I'm at. I think once a year, once every other year maybe is the time to do that. But kind of going into maybe a different aspect of it is that the idea of a yoga retreat and why people get on planes, do yoga and the whole thing about climate change, which has obviously become like it everyone's talking about it now. It's been an issue for a while. It's been bothering me for a while. So it's something that I have now really had a good look at. And my views on that side of things now is I think it's really important that we travel less. And as a retreat company where I take people overseas, I've actually made a decision, that I'm going to do less long haul travel and I'm going to do more slow travel. I'm going to do more local travel. But if we do go on those big trips, they have to be a force for good.

Sascha Kaus: Yeah, I just wanted to add, like, what I experienced when we went to Mongolia. I really felt how deep of a connexion we were able to form and create with the people that were running the camp over there and the kind of pride that they were showing towards us to be able to host us there and even in conversations with them to see, OK, it's something different that you do there. It's not like the usual guests that they have, like every week in and out, coming just for a day or two, just for a night and then leaving again. But actually having people there, staying there for a few days is a totally different experience. So they also feel there's a kind of interest, a much deeper interest in the culture and everything that they do.

And I remember like the first time when we were there when you did the first year treat, like that night when we went out to have this kind of Kirtan under the rocks. And I remember the guys coming to us and saying: “Hey, this is actually a place where like back in the days the ancient yogis and shamans used to practise and used to have their ceremonies.” And it's something so special even for them to be able to have that kind of thing in a way again. It was not that it felt like we were taking over something because we actually didn't know, but I felt how it filled them with such pride to be able to share this kind of holy place with us and to see how we create, how you and Emma created an atmosphere there that was really special and how the whole retreat, how everybody honoured. That it was just not like getting in, seeing a sight, some kind of like going in with a bus, stopping there for five minutes and then leaving again, but really having an experience that went so deep and to see how a kind of connection with culture can form even in a short time, by a connection that's it's way deeper than many other travels can give you.

Jools Sampson: No, you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right on that. I think the kind of retreats that we do, they are, you know, for the person who's travelling, the traveller, the guest, the yogi, whatever, however, you want to describe them. They are kind of purchasing experience. That's what you're selling. And for them, we are creating something really magical and powerful. But the impact and the connexion that you have with the people that you're working with for me is equally important. And you know you work with with a local team. I kind of co-create my retreats with local teams. So, you know, it takes me a long time to find a venue and then we kind of put the programmes together. So they're mutually beneficial. And that's partly the human connection that you're talking about.

And you can't kind of plan, you know, what happened in Mongolia, how we found that connexion around singing. You can't plan that you know, but if you set things up in a way where you're all in it together, I think that's really important as human connection.

Like you said: “That's why we travel, isn't it?” It goes beyond just rocking up somewhere to do yoga. Way beyond that. And I think that really is the power of that kind of work that you do on a retreat across everything. On another level, our Mongolia camps are off-grid. So they are, like, environmentally, you've got that long flight there. And then once you get there, we're having like zero impact on the environment. So, you know how I look at where I travel and what I do. You know, if you're going to Mongolia and then you work with a company like that. They are doing something, you know, they're supporting various conservation projects, but we are not damaging the environment, we get we travelled by train, we travel by camel, like, you know, we're in these camps. They're run by solar, as you know. So the impact that we're having on the environment is minimal. And the positive impact we're having on the people we work with is like max. So I feel good about that.

Sascha Kaus: And what is it then that you do at the moment that you have been thinking about over the last months or years to shift the retreat's to a more sustainable way of travel?

Jools Sampson: Right. I mean, I started working on this last year. People were starting to challenge me. I was starting to feel quite uncomfortable about the number of flights. And people were saying to me, I love your retreat's, but I really don't want to go on a plane. And I forgot about that. And people were saying: “Oh, you know, you can just offset it.” And I was thinking, I'm not sure if that's the answer, just ticking a box. You book your flight and then it says, would you like to offset this take?

Sascha Kaus: So by offset you mean paying for the carbon emission.

Jools Sampson: That's right. Yeah.

So there's a whole world out there of companies that donate money to various conservation-related projects or tree planting projects to mitigate the impact of carbon emissions. So you can pay money to those companies which with their money, will then go towards those projects. So someone has managed to set up this system to say, you know, if you get on a plane, these are then this is the number of tonnes of carbon emission. And therefore, you can pay this much money to plant this many trees or towards this project that would mitigate, it seems a bit of an arbitrary calculation. But it's a way of putting some money back into a positive climate, positive projects, basically.

And I think it's great. But it wasn't the answer for me, I think. I think, you know, I actually kind of need to change things a bit. So I started looking at it and I realised that I wanted to contribute some of those projects and change where I worked. But I kind of had all these retreats, booked, and I wasn't quite sure how. It can take me a couple of years, I think, to get there. And then we had global pandemic and everything stopped. And I've spent the last three months really working hard on this. And, you know, it's taken the time to really try and understand and study this whole thing from a travel perspective. And I basically I spent a long time working out all my carbon emissions for the last five years beyond my client flights, my guest flights, the in-country travel, the carbon emissions from the places I work. And then I did this whole long calculation and worked out that I can cut my carbon emissions by 50 per cent, which I'm really proud about because they kind of everybody is saying we need to reduce our carbon emissions and we need to do it by this amount, by this day. And then if everyone did that, then we would be on the path to net-zero.

And I listed it and said, actually, I can do quite a lot here. And some of that is reducing long haul travel. But a lot of it is finding the right people to work with where they are. You know, I'm now working with low impact destinations, so I'm looking at places that are working with renewable energy, that have good waste management. I'm looking at places where, you know, if we do have to fly once we get there, it's like what they call a climate positive experience. I now find partners in conservation areas. So when you book a retreat there, you're actually supporting that project or, you know, I found a new place to work in Panama. It's a reforestation project. So not only is our retreat supporting that, but I've also put money in the budget to add a further contribution.

So I've worked out how to cut my carbon emissions by 50 per cent. I have then worked out and put into my budgets that I will offset. I found the right, and it has taken me ages, there are so many offset partners out there. I found a brilliant offset company called Offsets Earth, had a long chat with them during lockdown about how I work and how I can do things. And so going forward in my budget, I will offset every guest flight as well as my team flights and any in-country travel. So I've kind of gone down the route of reducing my carbon footprint, offset the rest. And now I'm looking at projects in the countries that I'm working with where I can support conservation, tree planting. I'm taking my time with that because you have to make sure that you're supporting a good project. The money's going where it should go. So, like, if I'm working with, like, my Mongolian partners, they really know their stuff. I know they're donating to really good conservation projects. But new partners, I'm kind of, I’ve taken the time to ask the questions, and I have such a good response.

People are doing amazing stuff. I never even bothered to ask. I just kind of make assumptions that all that's probably not great. You know, why Iceland venue. They're running on 100 per cent renewable energy. They get the water from the mountain. I didn't even know they had their own reforestation projects. I never bothered to ask before. So now I'm finding out all this amazing stuff. So I've like published on my website. I've developed a list of eco-credentials what I'm looking for in a venue. And then I asked my venues, what are you doing? Where where are you at with that? And then I'm publishing it and being very open about where I'm at. And I have to say, there's a couple of places I am working that don't really fit that. And I'm committed to working with them. Like, obviously, my whole travel plan, retreat plan has been disrupted by the pandemic and things that were supposed to run this year will run into next year. But as I'm going forward, everything new that I'm choosing now fit these eco-credentials that I've developed so that I know that when I travel, that when we travel there. One, that we're not travelling as much. But then when we get there, we're contributing to something positive.

So I feel quite excited and quite proud of myself. It's taken me ages. I've done so many webinars as well. Lockdown's all about, isn't it? Zoom meetings, webinars. And I've also been doing this brilliant transformational travel design course, which has just been such an exceptional experience. But, there's a network and I found people within that network that work on climate change. And so I've just been badgering them and saying. “What if I do this and wanted to do that?” So I feel quite confident now that I'm going in the right direction.

Sascha Kaus: How was the response from the places that you work with to going through this and what actually… Tell me a little bit more also about this kind of what helped you to go deeper into this?

Jools Sampson: I think the place is the work. Some of the places that I work, I think most people have quite a strong awareness about climate change now, don't they? And I some of the placers that I mean, like Panama, South America, they're on it. Those guys. Costa Rica, those kinds of places, there are so many eco-lodges there. There are so many places that have been designed with rainwater catchment. I mean, they live in this amazing, biodiverse part of the world. They've got their rainforest. They want to protect it. You know, I found those guys is so inspiring. The work they're doing in that part of the world is not Europe where, you know, it's not so easy to find places in Europe. They're there, but it's not so common. And, you know, some countries can do it really easily because they have the natural resources, places like Norway and Iceland, they're running on renewable energy. You know, Norway, they've got so many trees.

So it's kind of easy for them in some ways to do it and other countries it's not. But even some of the newer places I'm working in the Azores and our new partners is a new hotel they've just built. And they've got loads of solar panels. But the solar panels are, because of the weather there, not enough to power the hotel. I didn't even ask them this one. I went to visit and then I'd emailed them afterwards and they were so passionate about it when I asked them. So they said: “Well, we've done this and then we're working with a green energy supplier, but we've made a really good deal with them that if we don't use any energy or we've got any extra energy, we're going to give it back to them so somebody else can have it.” So I think that lots of people are thinking about this and the way they do things. And I think I made a lot of assumptions. I mean, I was trying to kind of Google, you know, how the Azores are doing. You know, sometimes islands have quite a tough time because they have limited resources. I was trying to Google what they do and I thought: “Why am I doing that? Why don't I just ask my partners?” Because normally my relationship with partners is I email them to say, okay, we're coming at this time can you book some horse riding, where can we buy some bananas, blah, blah, blah. But now during lockdown, I've had much more time and I've been doing this course and trying to understand things. I've just been emailing and asking them. It's really deepened my knowledge and also my relationship with people. And I found it really inspiring. I have to say that here in the UK we're not doing so well. It's hard here to do it than he is anywhere else. That's been a real eye-opener for me.

Sascha Kaus: You mean like with the locations that you're doing your retreats in the UK?

Jools Sampson: Yeah, there are less options here. You know you can buy. You can get green energy. I've got a new location that's a complete off-grid, brilliant example of an environmentally sustainable location. And I think more and more places like that are happening. But, you know, for a lot of people who've got, you know, big old manor houses or old cottages and stuff, they're not environmentally sustainable. And, you know, it's difficult to make that happen here. Come on, UK government, sort it out.

Jools Sampson: How is it like in Germany?

Sascha Kaus: Actually, I don't have so much experience. I mean, the places that I've been to so far, for example, in Ibiza that's something that's always been bothering me. I mean, Ibiza is an island that absolutely has a water problem, especially in August when the island is for tourists. And then I ended up having retreats at houses and working in the kitchen. And I mean, you have to wash a lot of dishes and everything. But then seeing that, there is no way to put like these little filters on the tap so that it reduces the amount of water that you use. Everybody's telling you to be mindful about the water. But then those things just miss and you end up wasting so much water. And it always breaks my heart. And it's also this kind of conversation. Okay, let's see. There is something even if it's like this little thing that you could do. But in many places, the awareness is not there. So I feel it definitely takes the kind of initiative like on our side creating a retreat to say, OK, these are the locations that we want to work with. These are the places where I want to host a retreat. Yes.

Jools Sampson: Exactly. And I feel really passionate about that going forward. I think, you know, yogis are generally conscious beings and they care about the environment. And to go on a yoga retreat, you should be asking. They should be asking those questions like, you know, what kind of place we're working. What impact is it having on the environment? Can I make a contribution when I get there?

Sascha Kaus: Yeah, I absolutely I feel that that's something that needs to be addressed way more and that needs to be put into consideration way more, especially if we travel to go to places to practise yoga. But also yoga. As I know, yogis tend to be most of the times on a budget. So, I mean, when you say you have a number, you can put a number on it in the sense that you say you can reduce your emissions by 50 per cent and you can pay an offset for some of the carbon emissions that you produce. But did you also make the calculation for yourself, can you put a number, maybe in kind of percentage on it. Does it somehow increase the prices that you have to charge for people?

Jools Sampson: No, I've made sure that I haven't done that, basically. I mean, my retreats are not the cheapest retreats because of the locations that I go to. They're not cheap anyway, but actually, it doesn't cost that much to offset. If you find the right offset partner, you know, the people I'm working with. I mean, boring detail but it's two pounds to offset a ton of carbon emissions. So, you know, what I did is, there are some locations where the carbon emissions are too high and I'm just not going to do them again because it would cost too much money. Whereas, you know, if you look at a location where the only carbon offsetting you have to do is the flight and you're doing 20 people and the flights is you know, it's 25 tons. It's not a large amount of money that you're having to do. Yeah. So I'm you know, I've added four or five hundred pounds to each budget, which is going to be for offsetting but also looking at how to contribute to conservation projects, too. My hope is that once I've got those projects set up, I'm ready visible. Maybe some people would want to contribute more. So it's not that I'm spending a huge amount of money, I've just realigned where I'm working and how I'm working. And there are some places that I absolutely love going. But when I looked at the carbon emissions, I just thought, I'm just not going to do that. You know, that's not right for a yoga retreat.

Sascha Kaus: So you've been telling me about the course that you did.

Jools Sampson: Yes.

Sascha Kaus: All around sustainable business, sustainable travel. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Jools Sampson: Yes, it's basically these guys called the Transformational Travel Council. And I found them actually towards the end of last year completely by accident because they had a meeting in the Azores just after I'd been there. And it just came up somehow on some social media feed and I went: “Oh, transformational travel. I kind of think that I'm doing that. Who are these guys?” And I cheque them out, found their website and just thought, yeah, these guys are amazing. I want in. So I contacted them and said, can I be a member?

And I had to go through this interview process and had to fill out this long-form and talk about a time in my life when I'd experienced transformation. It is quite kind of deep stuff and I passed the interview and became a member. It set up with these guys in Seattle. So it's an American based country, says a lot of this sort of American language. I'm now an ally. So I think there are about 200 travel companies. Some of them are wellness travel, or adventure travel, coaching, travel, all sorts. And then once a year, they run a mentorship programme. And I applied for that thinking. “Do I want to do this? I'm not sure if I've got enough time.” And I had a big, long interview for that as well. I got accepted. And the course started in April this year. And it just so happened to coincide with the fact that we had a complete lockdown. And I have been stuck in my flat in London, cancelled retreats for the whole summer, and instead had this course to do. Sort of just like thrown myself into it.

And there's 30 of us doing the course from all around the world. And it's the most brilliant course I've ever done, I was not expecting it to be this good. I thought, oh, you know, we'll learn a little bit about transformation. How nice. That's kind of what you do when you go on a retreat. But it's such a deep course. And they've got so many amazing people from all around the world teaching each different module. And I think for all of us, they're doing the course because it's happened a time of a global pandemic. It's taken on a much deeper meaning. And all these extra groups have kind of formed. And we have like weekly zoom chats with people that have already done the course, who are already allies and people in there. So I found this whole new community, which I wasn't expecting, and it's just so powerful and so inspiring. And there are so many people around the world are going through this pandemic in a different way. You know, some people own lodges in Costa Rica. Someone's got a yoga retreat centre here and other people got a travel insurance business. So many different people in the travel industry, in different parts of the world going through this together. And it's just been an incredibly powerful experience. But at the core of it, it's a travel design course.

So it teaches you how to design a trip so that the people that go on it and the people that say is about. The traveller, but the transformation should equally be for the people in the places that you visit. So it's looking that's where the sustainability stuff comes into it, is it? It's not just about you as a traveller going somewhere and having an amazing experience. It's what about the people that you visit? Is your visit like you were talking about Mongolia, Is your visit to that place, an equally enjoyable, fruitful, interesting experience for the local community? And is your visit making a positive contribution to the environment and the conservation of that area? That's kind of why I've been studying, is how you create those trips.

And I think I was doing it for some of my retreats, like Mongolia. I was already doing it. But that was partly because of the way they set the camps up, not me. And now I kind of really understand how I need to set my trips up like that. So the core of our work doesn't change. It's kind of who we work with and where we work that's changing.

Sascha Kaus: And so you mentioned it briefly. And I mean, we haven't really gone into this like the whole thing with the lockdown and the impact that it has on the whole travel industry, on each one of us. And I don't want to get too much into what it actually does at the moment. But where do you see the chances are? Where do you see this will take us and create new ways of travel? How will it impact and transform travel in the future?

Jools Sampson: Yeah, I mean, I think I'm probably been to about 20 different webinars on that subject. And what I've noticed is as time has gone on, those conversations have changed. And I think the honest answer is that we don't know. I think that before we went into this whole thing, there was a lot of concern about climate change. And I think that one of the things that has been consistent all the way through is that we stopped travelling and the environment got a rest and the lack of planes in the air was a good thing. But then on the other side of it, people who are dependent on tourism have lost their entire income. So while no planes in the air was a good thing, no tourism is really tough for many, many communities. So there's been a lot of talk about when travel restarts, it should be a force for good. That seems to be a real common theme that you should be put your money into your tourists, pound or euro, whatever, should be going into the right place. And that's to take care of what you're booking and why? So but, you know, this is people in the travel industry that are saying this. Who knows?

Sascha Kaus: Yeah, I guess it's like a topic that it's hard to avoid. But how did you experience the whole lockdown with the virus and everything? How did it affect your own business and the way you see travel at the moment?

Jools Sampson: It's been a big one, a really big one. I mean, I just before everything really hit the UK, I did another podcast with the Huslers and I think they were like the last people I saw went to their place and recorded a podcast that I was quite confidently saying: “Oh, I've been through difficult times of my business before. And I've learnt lots of lessons because I've been through a financial crash and the whole Brexit vote. And both of those times I'll just kind of lost everything and had to rebuild.” And I was saying: “Oh, you know, I'm in a much better position now. And if as we go through this pandemic, I'm gonna be okay.2 And then it really hit. And obviously, none of us has ever experienced anything like this before. So for me, I've had to cancel several retreats and I've and I'm now in the process of postponing other retreats. So it's been difficult. You know, my income stopped completely. But also I'm dealing with multiple people who've booked retreats who have lots of concerns. And some of them are really happy just to postpone their whole trip until next year and just keep their booking with me and others, you know, understandably don't want to travel and want a refund. And so, you know, managing a cashflow situation like that where I have money invested in various retreats and then people want refunds is not easy.

But I have… it's been very important for me to do the right thing and do the right thing by our partners, by leaving my deposits with them because they have no income either. And sticking with them for the following year, but then also making sure that all the people who've booked retreats feel that they're in safe hands, that I'm not just trying to keep their money. And it's yeah, it's been not the easiest thing to deal with. And the uncertainty around travel when it's going to pick up, how it's going to pick up, what that's going to look like. It's all completely new ground, you know, what will travel insurance look like. But I have spent my time networking and being part of various types of travel professional groups so that I'm on top of things as they progress. But it's an ever-changing story, isn't it? So, where I'm at now is I haven't run any retreat since February. And my next retreat is now in August, which is a UK based retreat. And that sold out really quickly. So it seems that people really want to retreat. I wasn't sure if people would want to even do, you know, group holidays. But I've spent a lot of time working on how people can retreat safely and, you know, less numbers in the yoga rooms, individual rooms, clean hygiene protocols. Been working with my venues on those two. So our first international retreat is happening in September in the Azores, which is a COVID free country. So it's looking good. I've had a few cancellations, but I've had some new bookings. It's going to be slow going, I think. And step by step.

Sascha Kaus: So did you have to make any alterations in the sense of when you say you have the first retreat in the U.K. in August? And did you have to decrease the numbers so that you have only individual rooms? Or did you make any changes to how you would run it?

Jools Sampson: Yes. I mean, I put that one together during lockdown. So I specifically knew that it would have to be a small retreat. So it is not one that I'm already running that I had to change. So I set it up. It's only for 12 people. And what we've done is we've done a programme so that we only have six people in the class in the Yoga class. So we're having two groups. So I've put a programme together is that when one group is doing yoga, the other group can do something like wild swimming or paddleboarding. So it's a slightly different setup. Not the whole group is not going to do yoga together in that location. And there's plenty of single accommodation available. And it's a glam retreat, Retreat Affairs very outdoorsy. So we eat outdoors. There's lots of, you know, fresh air, which I think people like the idea of.

And the same thing goes for my Azores retreat. It's a big location and there's lots of possibilities to do yoga outside and to eat outside and lots of space there and lots of rooms. So people who were sharing twin rooms have now moved to their own rooms. And the people I'm working with there have, you know, it's Portugal. So they've all got the tourism board there has asked people to do training and they get given a certification, called clean and safe Portugal. And then they have to say exactly what they're going to do and how they're going to manage things. And I think particularly in the Azores because it's COVID free, they want to keep it that way. So they sent me a whole booklet on how they're managing their retreat Centre. It’S very impressive. So, yeah, we've got like a plan B if it's raining and we can't do yoga outside, we are going to split the group. So there's 16 on that retreat and we won't put 16 people in in a room. And I think it's going to be that way for a while. So I've basically just gone through every single venue and worked out how I can do things safely and spoken to my partners and make sure they know how to do things safely as well.

Sascha Kaus: You've touched another topic that's I feel like always quite a big issue with running retreats so that usually you have to put down a deposit to reserve a space and seeing that you somehow have retreats already lined up for next year, end of next year. And even from my own experience, sometimes talking to venues when they have bookings already like a year and a half, sometimes two years in advance. It's always quite a big thing to put down a lot of money. Not having any bookings yet. Maybe. And also sometimes seeing that some people try or tend to book very late. How do you approach the whole thing? And have you already somehow noticed a different approach from the venues now with the situation?

Jools Sampson: Yeah, that's a challenging one. I mean, when I find a new place to work, I have a very frank conversation with the host. I've learnt this the hard way. And this was something that I learnt when we had the financial crash in 2008. I had a lot of deposits invested, quite big deposits, and I was so confident the retreat was going ahead. I just sent them the deposit and didn't really think much about it. And then when the retreats got cancelled, I lost all my money and I got so burned. I think I lost about 10 grand in a week and it took me a year. So, you know, get that money back into my bank account and not pay myself. So I learnt a really harsh lesson.

So now when I pick a new retreat, I talk to them very frankly about what are you're booking terms, what are your cancellation terms. And as soon as this whole pandemic started, I immediately contacted all of my venues and said, what are your cancellation terms now? And the thing that I've done is I've established really good relationships with my venues, it's not something that I just book, like I Google and I book, I talk, I develop, I co-create the retreats with them anyway. I always try and visit the places before I go. So it's got a human connection and I tell them my situation.

So actually I’m really lucky that many of the places I work don't require a deposit. So they'll let me put a retreat now and see how it books. And if it, if I get, say, five or six bookings, I know that it's going to sail and then I'll send them the deposit. And most of them, the deposit is, you know, less than three grand. If somebody wants a 50 per cent deposit, non-refundable deposit upfront, I won't work with them. I've learnt the hard way, however amazing the venue is and however much I want to do it, I won't pay that kind of money upfront. And all of my venues have a policy that if I can't run the retreat, I can move the deposit to the following year. So I'm very careful about that. And I would advise anyone who's running retreats to make sure they do that. I've seen a lot of talk on various retreat groups on social media that people had retreats booked, they had to cancel because the pandemic and they lost their deposits and retreat centres, not allowing them to move the money onto the next year. And I really understand because I'm in a similar situation myself, but I think if you have a good relationship with somebody, I think also for me, I tend not to use retreat centres. I use quite unusual places. So they have other forms of income.

They're not relying on yoga retreats is their income. So I'm just one of many. So maybe they're in a better position to be flexible with me. Yeah, that's how I do it. Negotiation and good relationships.

Sascha Kaus: So I see and I hear that you have learnt your lesson. But what would be any other, big lesson out of the last fifteen years running retreats like what would be one of the big things, the big takeaways that you had?

Jools Sampson: Oh so many, so many lessons I've learnt along the way? I think my biggest lesson is, is be careful who you work with, particularly in terms of venues or locations and partners. Make sure that you have a very clear contract in place. And that also goes for the people that are on my team. I have been burned a couple of times.

I used to have a sort of a very simple contract that I think I downloaded off the Internet and then used it for my team members. And then I had a disagreement with a particular team member and she just took my contract and went, yeah, you owe me money. And it was not clear in my contracts how things would work if you had a dispute because I'd never been in that situation. And I ended up having to pay her some money that she hadn't even earned because my contract wasn't clear. So, I went off and I got myself a lawyer, an employment lawyer, and I had a contract to, you know, cost me thousand pounds to have it done, but I now have a really good contract and it's specific to me and how I work with my teams. And the contract is a really fair contract for both me and whoever I'm employing.

And I think that's really important. So I feel very confident and safe about how I work with people. If I contract somebody to do six retreats and then I decide I don't want to work with them anymore, I can't cancel their contract. You know, they have I have to have a very good reason. So they are protected. But at the same time, if they don't deliver, then I'm able to cancel the contracts. And so those things are much clearer now. So we all know where we stand. And I think that kind of stuff is the stuff I've learnt the hard way and it burns when you do it wrong. So I've got all of those things in place. I've got very good insurance in place. All of that stuff. When I started, I was like, oh yeah, we're all in this together. We're creating something nice. Here we go. And I think over time when things have gone wrong, it's tended to be around that stuff, which is actually quite easy to sort out. But I think you have to invest. I think you have to spend a bit of money getting your contracts right.

And I think the other thing I've learnt is, because I'm kind of pioneering and I'm going to places that on new. I am often running retreats in quite bonkers places. And sometimes the first time you do retreat like that, it's not easy. And the thing I've learnt about that is you must have a good team in place. You must absolutely have a good team and clarity because I can't carry something like that by myself, however much experience I've got. You know, we're doing a retreat in Svalbard next year. It was supposed to be as one of the ones that got postponed until it. But it's like a midnight sun retreat in Svalbard never been done before. Staying in an off-grid cabin.

Sascha Kaus: Where is Svalbard

Jools Sampson: Svalbard is north Norway near the North Pole, it’s very remote. It's quite an extreme location. And I'm very excited about it, but I really don't know what to expect. So I would not take a new team there. I would go with people I really trust and know that we know how we cope when we're challenged. I’m doing it with Emma Henry, me and Emma, have been in many, many situations where things have gone wrong and we're good at supporting each other and going: “Okay. This is a crisis. What should we do now?” And turning it around. And the clients don't even know anything about it. So, yeah.

Sascha Kaus: So how's your experience been? I mean, when you say you have your team and for most of the time you've been like, yeah, we get along. So we just have some kind of agreement and it won't turn out badly in a way. But then showing up with a contract that you have that kind of experience to sign contracts even after having worked for a long time. And how was the reaction on the other side?

Jools Sampson: Yeah, I think it depends on the person. You know some people I work with are very used to being contracted. I think in the yoga world, sometimes people are not so used to it. I find my chefs are very used to a contract and they read it through quite thoroughly and then they sign it without a problem. I think some yoga teachers are used to doing retreats and not being contracted at all. And I've had to talk them through it because it's a big contract. It's like 13 pages. It's a long contract. And some of it is, you know, that classic legal-speak that, you know, can seem a bit intimidating, I guess. And if somebody is new on the team and they don't know me, maybe they're thinking: “Oh, my God, what am I signing here?” So I do spend time going through it. But then I also give them the option and say, if you want to speak to any of my other team members who've been on the team for a while, if you have any concerns, you're most welcome to talk to them and find out what I'm like as an employer and what I'm like to work with on a team. So, you know, I don't feel concerned that you're signing your life away and something bad's gonna happen. So, yeah, I do. Sometimes people seem unsure about signing a contract that they feel that maybe I'm gonna use it against them. But that's not the purpose of my contract - at all. But you know, it yeah. It definitely takes a bit of work sometimes to talk people through that, but it's worth it.

Sascha Kaus: So have you experienced that after having this kind of agreement, having a dressing down, that it also creates a little bit more clarity and ease in the way you can work together?

Jools Sampson: Yes, of course, my contract. Apart from having all the legal requirements in it, there's kind of schedules at the back. So there's a schedule that has there, like not only the dates and the times and how much travel allowance they have, all of those things. It also has a list of their duties and then it also has a list of our values. So it's very clear what's going to happen. I think that generally speaking, people who come on the team already know what their duties are. But there's kind of additional duties on there, you know, sort of like things like I always ask my chefs to make sure that they eat at least one meal a day with guests. And I think that's sometimes quite unusual for chefs. They would prefer actually to just be in the kitchen cracking on because they've got loads to do, such as stop doing what they're in the kitchen, then come and sit and eat. So sometimes chefs have said, do I actually have to do that every single day? And I say, yeah, it's in your contract because I'd really like you to do that.

So it's not that you can't do it, it's whole. But if you're having a really busy day and you have loads to do and you literally can't sit down, that's absolutely fine. Just tell me it's not that we're there to force you to sit every day and eat. And if, you know, some things happen, same with yoga teachers it the same, most of the time they are hungry and they want to eat the same time as the guests anyway. But, you know, if they've had a big one in class and they just want to go back to their room and have quiet time, that's totally fine. It's not like: “You're in breach of contract. That's the end.” It's like, you know, let's discuss it. Those things are there as a guide. Of how I like to work. Yeah.

Sascha Kaus: It's so interesting because me being a chef in my own retreats, I mean, I'm cooking for everybody. That's what I want to do. I mean, I want to be with the guests. That's my chance to be around. And I also like the people that I have helping me in the kitchen. I always want them to be with everybody at the table so that it's also creating this kind of atmosphere. We are here in this together and we are here as a group. And I guess especially when you also when you're taking chefs somewhere, it's also another journey. It's not that you're just going like you're going into a hotel and there's this kind of separation of staff and the guests. It can be a really special thing. And I totally get like sometimes it's you just have to do so much and I end up getting up earlier. Get him away from the table or get my kitchen member state. Just spend time in the kitchen and shining the meal. But it's also creating this kind of atmosphere. We are here as a family and having this experience together, which is beautiful.

Jools Sampson: Yeah. But they're your own retreats, aren't they, Sascha?

Sascha Kaus: Yes. I created them.

Jools Sampson: Yes. So when I work with Bettina, who is another chef. If it's her retreats and it's about the food, she's there 24/7. I think other retreats when it's more focussed on the yoga. Sometimes the chefs kind of just want to put themselves in their kitchen and do their thing separately. But normally, when they do come and eat with the guests, they love it. Yes. It's just kind of pulling yourself out of the kitchen, doing mode and to having fun with the guests.

Sascha Kaus: But that's also my understanding of food. I mean, I've been cooking for yoga teachers on their retreats. When I was just hired as a chef. So, yeah, in those moments, I never demand it. Because I leave it up to the yoga teacher to see, like, how they want to create the whole atmosphere. But I'm always there. I always enjoy being with the guests because it's also the moment where I can somehow communicate my understanding of food. I can let them know what I've cooked and why I do it and how I do it. And I think it's such an integral part of a retreat because like how we nourish ourselves, not only through the practice on the yoga mat or whatever kind of practices are taught in the retreat, but also the way we nourish our self. It's like this kind of it's it's making it whole in a way. So at least and there and if I'm invited, I'm super happy to be able to connect with guests and share food together.

Jools Sampson: Yeah, I think I'd like to come on one of your retreats, actually, Sascha.

Sascha Kaus: You're always invited. I would love to have you.

Jools Sampson: That sounds amazing. We’re like talking the same language, aren't we? I would really like to do that.

Sascha Kaus: I'm gonna feed you the most delicious stuff for sure.

Jools Sampson: Yeah. I've heard about your food. I heard about your food.

Sascha Kaus: Good. So are like since you're already like in this part of a little bit more like the business side of things, like what would you say? Is there any kind of tool that is essential for you to run your retreats? That really helps you to be successful in what you do?

Jools Sampson: Good question. Like, what do you mean by a tool, like a technical tool?

Sascha Kaus: It could be it could also be like a practise that you have that you established.

Jools Sampson: That's a really good question. I mean, from a business perspective, I kind of one of the things that I did a couple of years ago, having been doing my business for 15 years, is I moved onto an accounting software programme. So boring. Oh, my God. It nearly killed me the boredom of it, because he's not my favourite part of it. I have various people like I have an up an assistant, a brilliant assistant, called Claire, who does loads of work for me. And then I used to have someone, it did my bookkeeping and I was totally trusted her. And when I submitted my accounts to my accountant realised that for a whole year I'd been paying her and she'd done it all wrong. And it was an absolute disaster. And I've paid all this money and it hadn't worked. So I had this painful three-month process of redoing all of my accounts myself. I remember someone saying to me if you are running a business and you don't understand the finance of your business and you don't know what's coming in, what's going out, you shouldn't be running a business. And that was a real wake up call for me. So I moved all of my stuff onto this programme called Kash Flow and painfully taught myself how to use it and went to see my accountant and went through it all. And I now use that programme to manage all of my guests. All of their information. And it kind of tracks deposits when things are due, how much they've paid. And now I have the system in place. Everything is absolutely crystal clear. And I have to say it's really boring, but it's really quite life-changing because before I was working on Excel spreadsheets.

So each retreat would have its own spreadsheet. But they didn't talk to each other as though somebody had booked more than one retreat all the information didn't go across. You know, you had to re-edit it all. So now I've got this system in place that, from my business perspective, has made everything very smooth running from sitting here. And that kind of went alongside me upgrading my website and being able to take bookings on my Web site and working with a really great developer to make sure I had like a good shop on my Web sites because before it used to crash and people, you know, it's embarrassing. They say: “Oh, I just tried to book an account, but because this has gone wrong” and I invested some money there as well. So I've gotten kind of really smooth. Fingers crossed, you know, technical stuff. A smooth booking process for people. So it's easier and it's in a sense from that side, from the business. Those things have I felt like I should've done them ages ago, but doing them in the last few years has really, really changed things and changed the experience for my guests, I think.

And in terms of running retreats and tools. I like. I am a list lady. I mean, there are two things that I always do. I have team meetings every day. So we have a team meeting. I usually try and meet up with the team before we travel individually because they're already busy people and just go through. This is who's coming. This is what I'm expecting. This is what's gonna happen. And tune them in if I can.

And then when we arrive, we come together and we have a team planning meeting and we go through everything. And then I used to have a team meeting every single day and then realised that it was exhausting. And the yoga teacher didn't need to know what was happening in the kitchen and vice versa. And I thought it would be a great idea to bring everyone together. But now what I do is I have like a Check-In meeting with different parts of the team and then feedback to each other. So I always have a meeting with the yoga teacher after morning class and check-in how was class. How is everybody? How are you? I check in with them before class. But then we have a proper debrief and then I always check in with the kitchen before they start their day. What's happening today? Are you going shopping? Do you need anything? So kind of a check-in with everybody. And then in the middle of the retreat, we all come together and share what's going on for each other, what's going on with the guests? What's happening for the rest of the retreat. And then at the end of the retreat, I try and have a closing meeting. But that sometimes goes a bit wrong because it's so hectic. But I try and bring everyone back together. So I'm very much into that team process and I have like a running list. All-day, every day. And it's always divided down the middle and on the left, it's got all the logistical things that I need to do. And on the right is all the kind of guest related stuff. That's my private list. Maybe I've had a conversation with somebody and they've mentioned something, and I want to go and find out if I can do something for them. You know, like someone has said: “I don't like riding horses” and everyone's going horse riding tomorrow. “I really like mountain biking.” And I think: “I’ll go see. I'm going to ask the owners of this place if they can get hold of a mountain bike somewhere.” So I have those kinds of less as well. And before I go to bed every evening, I go through that list and then rewrite the list for the next day. And so that's kind of how I work. I’m Mrs List. I love my lists.

Sascha Kaus: And I have to say, I mean, I've been part of some of the team meetings in Mongolia. Oh, yes. And I find it to be really, really good also to be able to share the necessary information about everybody. And it was not about in any kind of way like gossiping or exchanging like the information it wasn't supposed to share, but also being able to create a mindful experience to be mindful about what is going on, especially when you're part of the team, but you're not around all the time in any space. So that really helps to create a special atmosphere. And it's also something that I like to do in my retreats, take the time and exchange about the things that are important and that help us as a team to create a special time for the guests.

Jools Sampson: Yes, I think I mean, we have a very strong code of conduct that I make very clear to all of the team. That's the way we talk about our guests and each other and to our guests and to each other has to be respectful and kind. And sometimes, you know, that can be difficult. You can clash and you need to vent. And, you know, the team meetings create a safe space for that. But then it's also a place where we can remind each other, you know, sometimes you need to vent. You may have got frustrated with someone, the team, and it's good to clear it. But then to bring it back into that place of kindness and compassion. But also it's very important that you know, guests confidentiality is on it. So if something big and private is happening for a guest that we don't sit and talk about that and the team meetings, that has to be held by the person that has shared it. But you might be able to say: “You know, this person has disclosed some information to me today and it's private. I want to let you know that it's been disclosed and I'm working with it. And she may be feeling a little vulnerable or a little upset today. And just to let you know..:” and so it gives the rest of the team the head's up just to kind of keep an eye on that person without kind of knowing what's going on. And that seems to work really well as it helps people feel very safe.

Sascha Kaus: Yeah. And I made the experience that you never know what kind of baggage people bring into a retreat and you never know who's going to be the mirror to bring it out to expose it could be any other guests, could be some kind of conflict that arises between guests. But it could also be between the yoga teacher and a guest, could be between any other member, even like the staff of the house or whatever. And I find it really, really important and helpful to come together and create that safe space within the team to voice these things and to be able to put them into context and also to help each other as a team to reflect and decompress and put things into perspective so we can go out again on the next day or after a meal or after that conversation and be free of that. Having had the chance to process these things and be there again for the guests with all our empathy and all our power and all our dedication for what we actually want to create in that moment.

Jools Sampson: Absolutely. It's so important, isn't it? And I need that, too. I think like you said everybody on the team sometimes as the person organising and in charge of the logistics. If something goes wrong around that side of things, I can often be on the receiving end of unhappy guests and sometimes that's hard, and I appreciate being in the team where I can kind of go: “Oh, really hard time this morning, I got a bit battered” and there'll always be someone in the team who can say: “Don't take it personally. Remember, this has happened and just wait and see how things unfold.” And, you know, it's it's very necessary, I think, to support each other in that situation.

Sascha Kaus: Do you have any kinder practises for yourself during retrieve or even between retreats that help you to regain your energy or to maintain your energy, maintain your focus?

Jools Sampson: You know, I would love to say that I have a really strong yoga practise and I use Steve, which is why I set the whole thing up in the first place. But these days I am a bit of a…. I've got a personal trainer and I train hard. Like, I'm in my 50s now and I need to be fit and strong. And I find when I'm not on retreats, I like to kind of do stuff that is not related to yoga and yoga retreats. So I train, you know, two or three times a week with my trainer. Normally when there's not a lockdown I do spinning classes and then I would go to a Yoga class maybe once a week. So I'm kind of I'm strong and I'm fit and I need that from my travels and my journeys because they're very physical locations a lot of them. And that's what keeps me going. And I eat well. Yeah, I'm fairly healthy and fairly strong. Probably I am healthy and strong not fairly. And that's the kind of I feel like I need that physical strength to do my job if it feels like I need to be managing my energy in that way by being strong. I used to be somebody who practised yoga regularly and I did a lot of meditation and I seem to have moved on in my life. I felt like it might come back, but I'm not doing that so much. And I partly think it's because I'm around it a lot for work. And so it almost feels like work when I'm doing it. But I'm always curious. I did an online class yoga class last night and I really enjoyed it was not my normal kind of practice, but I, I dunno, I dip in and out of lots of things, I think.

Sascha Kaus: Well, what would be a destination for yourself to travel to without being the host of a retreat. Without organising but just going for yourself.

Jools Sampson: I'm really keen to go to Canada. I've never been and I've been having a really good look around to some amazing places there. Generally speaking, I do have a passion for Scandic countries. So for me, staying in a log cabin in a quiet forest by a river would be just absolute heaven. I'm not so much of a beach person these days. I like mountains, mountains, rivers and cabins are my passion. Yeah, kind of got my eye on a few cabins in Canada, but I don't think I'm gonna be going there anytime soon.

Sascha Kaus: And we've talked a little bit about Colvert and Cure already said a little bit about what's coming up for you next week. The retreat in the UK in August. But there's also like one special project that I've seen that you're doing for the NHS workers. Could you tell a little bit more about that?

Jools Sampson: Oh, yes. Yes, I can. I decided when we were in the real hardcore part of the pandemic here in the UK, I really felt there was a lot of pressure on our NHS and a lot they had you know, they've worked they worked so hard in not great conditions. And I just felt so much compassion. We do have some regular retreat guests who worked for the NHS that I saw. I was in touch with them and I knew what they were going through. And I just I really wanted to do something.

Sascha Kaus: The NHS is the National Health Service.

Jools Sampson: Yes.

Sascha Kaus: For all of our listeners who don’t know. All the health care workers.

Oh, yes. All the health care workers. Yes. So as we went through the pandemic, everyone was sick, went into NHS hospitals, and they were very overloaded in very difficult situations for a while. And so I basically decided, what can I do to help? What do I do? I run retreats. I would love to run a retreat for people like that for free so they can come and we can look after them. So while they've been looking after everybody else and they've been taking care, can we offer them something where we take care of them as a thank you? So I contacted one of my favourite UK venues and she was totally up for it and she said: “I’ll just charge you costs and you can come.” And then I asked my team: “Would you be up for donating your time?” And they all said. “Yes.”

So I basically put together a project where I have been fundraising for the costs, which are the accommodation costs and the food, and we'll give it going to give them some wine. We feel like we don't need to make this kind of a detox weekend this needs to be a treat weekend. I needed to raise two thousand pounds to run the entire retreat for 16 people. So I've been fundraising and I'm nearly there. I think I've got 1600 pounds in the pot. So almost there.

But I also opened and asked people if you know someone that you think deserves this retreat. You can nominate them. And I've had about 150 nominations so far. And they are amazing nominations. I mean, the kindness, you know, people have nominated their partners who they've been separate from because they couldn't put them at risk. They've been separated from their children. There's cleaners, bus drivers, shop workers. And it is not just for the NHS, it's for essential workers. Anyone who had gone above and beyond during the pandemic and I only have 16 places and I've got so many nominations. So what I've decided to do is once I can put the retreat's together, I'm going to offer out and get those 16 people booked and then for the other people if I have any spare places on any other retreats. I'm gonna offer them to come to that. So I'm just gonna keep it going like a fund. So because so many of them deserve it. It's not time-bound. So I have a feeling, especially in the next six months. Not all my retreats are going to be full. Because normally on my retreat sold out very easily. But I think now post-pandemic, some people won't want to travel. Or they may not be financially in a situation where they can travel. So there may be one or two spare places on retreats. So why not invite people to come along? So, yeah, I haven't started any of that process yet, but I'm really looking forward to it and being able to make that offer to people.

Sascha Kaus: So if our listeners like to donate to that amazing project, how could they do so?

Jools Sampson: Oh, that would be brilliant. It's on my Web site, which is reclaimyourself.co.uk and there it's got its own section called Gift Retreat. And if you just go to that section, you can find it on the home page really easily. It's got a donate and a nominate button so you can still continue to nominate people and you can donate. Great. Thank you.

Sascha Kaus: OK. So everybody out there, if you feel the call and if you want to donate to that project, we're going to put a link in the show notes and all the additional information. And maybe you can also contribute a little bit to giving back to all those people who have worked so hard during this crisis and who definitely need the chance to go on retreat. I think it's an amazing project and great that you're doing that.

Jools Sampson: Thank you. Yeah, it feels good. I'm really looking forward to actually doing it and meeting these people. Having read all these nominations, some of them made me cry. They're so beautiful. And so actually meet those people. I'm really looking forward to it.

Sascha Kaus: What is something else that you're really looking forward to within the next half year? Say so.

Jools Sampson: During lockdown, it's been a learning period for me. So I think we talked about earlier. I did this transformational travel design course and I've learnt all these new skills. And I'm really at the moment, I am in creative mode. So I'm putting together some new retreats for next year and beyond. I think at the moment we have to play the long game. And so patience is the key. Not very good at patience, but I've got some really… I've had loads of good ideas in lockdown after the initial shock of losing so much and feeling like everything kind of got burnt down to the ground. And I had to start again once I got to that place and started to think, oh, clean slate. How would I do things differently? I mean, I talked about the responsible travel stuff and I've been looking for venues in a completely different way. I've been looking for people who are experts at conservation and then approaching them and asking if I can create something with them. So I've got these new partners to work with and I can't launch those retreats yet. Slowly, slowly, but I've got at least four countries that we're not working with at the moment. I'm so excited about it.

I've just got these brilliant plans on co-creating with local partners in a completely different way. And I've got one particular project. I'm sort of being a bit mysterious because I can't launch any of it yet. I've got this particular project that won't launch until 2022, but I'm putting it together now. It's not exactly how I've done things before. It's wellness, but it's transformational travel, is conservation. The yoga is a big part of it still. But there's more. And so all my creative energy is going into that stuff now. So, yeah, that's the big stuff that I'm very excited about in the next six months. I am just looking forward to getting back on the road. I've been stuck in my flat in London for four months. You know, I think I should be in Svalbard right now and I've, you know, cancelled that. I should have been in Mongolia in a couple of weeks time, cancelled that. So I do love to travel. I like to do it well. And I like to do I'd love to meet people. I've been fantasising about going to Iceland all summer. We've got a retreat there in October and it's looking really promising that that's going to go ahead. Another COVID free country and they've managed things very well. And I've noticed that a lot of my partners who live in these beautiful places, their lockdown has been amazing, you know, living in absolute paradise. And yes, they've had no customers, and that's very concerning. But while I've been stuck in my flat in London, they've been, you know, skiing or in the hot springs or riding horses in the wilderness. And I'm like: “Oh, I wouldn't do that.”

So I'm really looking forward to being able to travel to see the partners that I've been chatting to through all of this and just to reconnect and run a retreat. I don't know what it's going to be like to run a retreat after this pandemic. What I can see from the emails I've been receiving in the last couple of weeks is people really want to do it. They really need something around wellness and togetherness and adventure.

Sascha Kaus: Yeah, I totally hope that we will be able to come together if everybody soon again. There’s also a lot of people that I have in different places around the world that I would really love to see again and give them a hard can, come together, spend time together and. Yeah. I also see that you will definitely have a lot of interesting things coming up and I’m super excited to hear more about them. And this gives me already a chance to say, I’m looking forward to having you back on the show at some point.

Jools Sampson: Oh, yes, please.

Sascha Kaus: But before we close this up, is there anything that you would like to add to say anything that we haven’t touched yet, that you want to get out there into the world and let people know?

Jools Sampson: The thing that I’m really passionate about at the moment is about responsible travel. And I think as we come out of this pandemic, there’s been a lot of talk about a green recovery. And I think having spent lots of time working on this responsible travel, yes, it’s about protecting the planet, but it’s also about how you work with people, how you interact with people, how you support people when you travel. And I’m just so passionate going forward, particularly in the yoga retreat world, that we all try our absolute best to travel responsibly and to just invite people to join me on this path of really looking at how you work and where you work and who you work with and making sure you’re making a positive contribution not just to your Yogi guests, but to the places and the people that you’re working with because I think that really is so important now. And it’s we’ve got a chance. We’ve had a pause. We’ve got a chance to really review things and do very well, and I think if we all come together and do that in the Yoga industry with yoga cheerful, it could be very powerful. I’d really like to see that as a big shift.

Sascha Kaus: I feel that’s an amazing opportunity. And that’s also something that I am really passionate about and that I want to give a platform here with the podcast because I feel that’s the chance that we have now to really reflect on how we travel. I still feel that travel, in general, is just an amazing opportunity to learn more about the world and to, overcome certain believes that we have of other cultures by really getting in touch with them and really seeing different places, meeting other people and with this kind of travel going in small groups to smaller places. It really enables us to connect on a different level with local communities and support local communities, small businesses, individual people that really work hard to create something special. And they open their houses and their lives to invite others. And it all helps us to come together and grow. And it’s totally different from the big travel industry. So I would really love to support that. And if there is a chance to inspire more people to make a conscious decision on how they travel instead of just abandoning all travel, then I feel this is a right step into the future.

Jools Sampson: Yeah, I completely agree with you. I do. I’m very passionate about it. And I think the other thing I just wanted to say before we close is I think that what you’re doing with his podcast is brilliant. As soon as you contacted me about it, I thought, oh, my God, I wish I’d had the idea. You know, I’m really passionate about retreats. You’re very passionate about retreats. But I don’t really see anything like this out there. You know, there’s lots of podcasts about yoga and wellness, but actually about yoga retreats, about wellness retreats and what we’re doing. I can’t wait to listen to who else you’re interviewing and other chats from people all around the world that are as passionate as we are about this. It’s such a brilliant initiative. So thank you for inviting me. It’s really it’s a really cool thing.

Sascha Kaus: Thank you so much. Cheers. It was such a pleasure to talk to you all of, though. And despite all the technical difficulties that we had.

Jools Sampson: We had a few.

Sascha Kaus: Hopefully all our listeners out there don’t get them into the final recording. So there will be a little bit of editing.

Jools, you have been so passionate. You’ve been so supportive. And it was just like amazing to have you here. I’m super, super grateful. And I’m looking forward to having you back and I’m looking forward to seeing what’s going on with your next adventures and thank you. Thank you for being on the show.

Jools Sampson: Thanks. Absolutely loved it. Thank you very much.

 
 
Sascha Kaus http://www.saschakaus.com
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EPISODE 003 | ANTHONY ABBAGNANO - YOU ARE A LEADER
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EPISODE 001 | SASCHA KAUS - WELCOME TO RETREAT AFFAIRS